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Post by Bundy on Oct 24, 2012 13:34:19 GMT 10
Why it is priced more than the Clubsport is beyond me Bundy, the one I saw looked ok from a distance, but I was able to spend a couple of minutes walking around it parked in the sun and the detailing really was second rate. Compared to my E3 R8 it really did look like it wasn't very well coordinated in terms of the colour matching. The big red insert in the rear bumper looked like it was painted by a guy with a spray tin he bought from Supercheap. The wheels looked great and the red inserts really set them off, but clearly this is a supplier product and not done in house at FPV as the colour is several shades darker than the decals or paint outs. For $80k plus on road it's hard to see anyone but truly one eyed FPV fans thinking it's a good deal. Surely one of the handfull of people that are left at FPV is responsible for product quality and I just wonder how they could let a car out of the factory that was so obviously mismatched in terms of it's colour? Why not just add a few hundred to the cost and replace the decals with real paint? Even if it added $5k, at least FPV fans could point to a unique option on this model rather than some badly coloured stickers... It just defies good commercial sense to have a brand that is clearly inferior in sales to HSV charge more for their showcase falcon compared to HSV's competing offering. I mean, if the car was much better quality, had a clear advantage in performance or had all these endearing features they could justify charging that extra 5k but from what you say Redforever plus what the journos have said, it just isn't justified... I just get this impression with Ford and it spills over to the V8 scene that they just have this complacent attitude that everything is right or will be right and nothing needs to change or improve for them to be competitive... they can charge the same price for the Falcon as the commodore yet the commodore out-sells the Falcon 3-1...I often think about the analogy of beer here in Queensland - you don't ever see the most popular beer here XXXX gold ever cheaper than Carlton Mid - but Mid holds its own and getting more popular, albeit incredibly slowly... Marketing, pricing it all needs to change but so many of us have been saying that for years and yet they don't listen and soon it will be too late and they will shut up shop here in Australia.
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100%FORD
V8 Development Driver
Posts: 342
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Post by 100%FORD on Oct 25, 2012 16:02:07 GMT 10
Bundy, the one I saw looked ok from a distance, but I was able to spend a couple of minutes walking around it parked in the sun and the detailing really was second rate. Compared to my E3 R8 it really did look like it wasn't very well coordinated in terms of the colour matching. The big red insert in the rear bumper looked like it was painted by a guy with a spray tin he bought from Supercheap. The wheels looked great and the red inserts really set them off, but clearly this is a supplier product and not done in house at FPV as the colour is several shades darker than the decals or paint outs. For $80k plus on road it's hard to see anyone but truly one eyed FPV fans thinking it's a good deal. Surely one of the handfull of people that are left at FPV is responsible for product quality and I just wonder how they could let a car out of the factory that was so obviously mismatched in terms of it's colour? Why not just add a few hundred to the cost and replace the decals with real paint? Even if it added $5k, at least FPV fans could point to a unique option on this model rather than some badly coloured stickers... It just defies good commercial sense to have a brand that is clearly inferior in sales to HSV charge more for their showcase falcon compared to HSV's competing offering. I mean, if the car was much better quality, had a clear advantage in performance or had all these endearing features they could justify charging that extra 5k but from what you say Redforever plus what the journos have said, it just isn't justified... I just get this impression with Ford and it spills over to the V8 scene that they just have this complacent attitude that everything is right or will be right and nothing needs to change or improve for them to be competitive... they can charge the same price for the Falcon as the commodore yet the commodore out-sells the Falcon 3-1...I often think about the analogy of beer here in Queensland - you don't ever see the most popular beer here XXXX gold ever cheaper than Carlton Mid - but Mid holds its own and getting more popular, albeit incredibly slowly... Marketing, pricing it all needs to change but so many of us have been saying that for years and yet they don't listen and soon it will be too late and they will shut up shop here in Australia. Reviews 1st review - Rspec wins every catogory but gizmo and reporters opinion Top gear 4.5 sec 0-100 in a manual, thats in the $160000 W427 HSV league with a 85K difference Did you miss this review theage.drive.com.au/new-car-comparison/power-struggle-20121012-27gd4.htmlHave you got any of the other head to head reviews to post
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Post by Bundy on Oct 25, 2012 18:01:43 GMT 10
It just defies good commercial sense to have a brand that is clearly inferior in sales to HSV charge more for their showcase falcon compared to HSV's competing offering. I mean, if the car was much better quality, had a clear advantage in performance or had all these endearing features they could justify charging that extra 5k but from what you say Redforever plus what the journos have said, it just isn't justified... I just get this impression with Ford and it spills over to the V8 scene that they just have this complacent attitude that everything is right or will be right and nothing needs to change or improve for them to be competitive... they can charge the same price for the Falcon as the commodore yet the commodore out-sells the Falcon 3-1...I often think about the analogy of beer here in Queensland - you don't ever see the most popular beer here XXXX gold ever cheaper than Carlton Mid - but Mid holds its own and getting more popular, albeit incredibly slowly... Marketing, pricing it all needs to change but so many of us have been saying that for years and yet they don't listen and soon it will be too late and they will shut up shop here in Australia. Reviews 1st review - Rspec wins every catogory but gizmo and reporters opinion Top gear 4.5 sec 0-100 in a manual, thats in the $160000 W427 HSV league with a 85K difference Did you miss this review theage.drive.com.au/new-car-comparison/power-struggle-20121012-27gd4.htmlHave you got any of the other head to head reviews to post I don't but Drive has notoriously supported the falcon - read from that what you will But the question is does this you beaut performance advantage down the straight justify the extra 4 k for a marquee brand from Ford that is failing - falling sales, Prodrive packed it in, etc...and you can't really say it does...I mean the car appeals to the ford enthusiasts and one in particular apart from you 100%Ford comes immediately to mind but they still aren't going to go out in droves and purchase the car. It's the swinging car buyer that just wants to purchase a performance car and doesn't give a **** that the FPV can do 100 km/hr in .2 seconds faster than the HSV but would rather save the $$$, especially in today's economic climate with fuel prices the way they are, carbon tax, etc, (not to mention how much cheaper the Chrysler is compared to both of them - so they have to worry about imports as well) FPV have pinned their hopes to a marketing campaign with one of Ford's greats in Moffat - but for an ailing car industry - it really needs to be a two prong approach, catchy marketing and enticing price.
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Post by Redforever on Oct 26, 2012 14:56:37 GMT 10
It just defies good commercial sense to have a brand that is clearly inferior in sales to HSV charge more for their showcase falcon compared to HSV's competing offering. I mean, if the car was much better quality, had a clear advantage in performance or had all these endearing features they could justify charging that extra 5k but from what you say Redforever plus what the journos have said, it just isn't justified... I just get this impression with Ford and it spills over to the V8 scene that they just have this complacent attitude that everything is right or will be right and nothing needs to change or improve for them to be competitive... they can charge the same price for the Falcon as the commodore yet the commodore out-sells the Falcon 3-1...I often think about the analogy of beer here in Queensland - you don't ever see the most popular beer here XXXX gold ever cheaper than Carlton Mid - but Mid holds its own and getting more popular, albeit incredibly slowly... Marketing, pricing it all needs to change but so many of us have been saying that for years and yet they don't listen and soon it will be too late and they will shut up shop here in Australia. Reviews 1st review - Rspec wins every catogory but gizmo and reporters opinion Top gear 4.5 sec 0-100 in a manual, thats in the $160000 W427 HSV league with a 85K difference Did you miss this review theage.drive.com.au/new-car-comparison/power-struggle-20121012-27gd4.htmlHave you got any of the other head to head reviews to post So you dismiss the reviews that don't support your opinion, and then quote those that do? This helps your case how exactly? Surely FPV's success (or lack of) is the real yardstick against which their product should be judged. In other words, how many punters put their money where their mouths are and actually buy their products. The hard facts are that not many people are actually buying FPV's, regardless of what motoring reviewers say. FPV spent a ridiculous $4 million on the suspension changes for the R Spec and even at a $4k premium, they will need to shift 1 000 cars to simply cover their costs. From memeory FPV are only making around 100 R Specs, which leave about $3.6 million to try and recover across the rest of their range. If they make the R Spec an option on the standard GT, what was the point of this model in the first place? That leaves the GT-P and rock hard suspension is not on the list of buyers needs when they choose a GT-P over a GT in the first place. What's left? Wasted on the lower powered GS which runs different suspension, wheels, tyres and brakes anyway. And the R Spec wasn't designed for the lighter and again different suspension tune of the F6. And even if it was recalibrated for the Turbo model, apart from adding even further to the already astronomical development costs, FPV only sell 1 F6 to every 4 V8 models. So it would take take years for FPV to even look like getting their money back. The simple fact is that this suspension and wider wheel and tyre combination should have been on the GT from day one of the FG. FPV did too little too late. They spent millions on a subtle suspension change and wider wheels - which companies like Herrod had been doing for the Falcon for years and they are now left with a huge development bill simply giving the GT the kind of tyre and suspension packages HSV offered on the VE way back in 2006.... The GT R Spec is a fitting metaphor for FPV's demise. Poorly thought out, badly executed, too expensive and backed with non existent marketing and support.
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100%FORD
V8 Development Driver
Posts: 342
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Post by 100%FORD on Oct 26, 2012 17:14:19 GMT 10
Can you post up the reviews that i have dismissed?
I am interested in all the reviews that put the FPV R spec or even the F6 head to head with HSV.
By memory it 375 sedans and 200 utes.
Isnt that the way advancement has worked in the motoring industry, up spec models begin with the advancements at a premium that eventually pass down to the lower spec models.
Must not be to bad the HSV's have been the whipping boys of the FPV all Aussie powered F6 for years, now the Aussie engineered FPV V8 has stepped up to the mark aswell.
What was the budget HSV spent on the W427? meant to sell 427 and only managed just over 100, but what would you expect your ignorance is bliss.
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Post by HDT05 on Oct 29, 2012 8:50:37 GMT 10
W427? pff that car was nothing special. Heavy hunk of junk!
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Post by Redforever on Oct 29, 2012 10:39:29 GMT 10
Can you post up the reviews that i have dismissed? I am interested in all the reviews that put the FPV R spec or even the F6 head to head with HSV. By memory it 375 sedans and 200 utes. Isnt that the way advancement has worked in the motoring industry, up spec models begin with the advancements at a premium that eventually pass down to the lower spec models. Must not be to bad the HSV's have been the whipping boys of the FPV all Aussie powered F6 for years, now the Aussie engineered FPV V8 has stepped up to the mark aswell. What was the budget HSV spent on the W427? meant to sell 427 and only managed just over 100, but what would you expect your ignorance is bliss. HSV the whipping boys? Mate based on what? Certainly not sales or resale value. Just exactly how do you gadge a performance car's success? Surely its sales play am massive part. Simply put, FPV's sales be it turbo six or supercharged V8 or that quad cam lump they used to sell - has been mediocre to poor throughout the companies history. So based on your claim that FPV intend to produce a total of 575 R Spec sedans and utes, it puts the R Spec development at a little under $7 000 per car. With number like that no wonder Prodrive packed up and ran away...
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100%FORD
V8 Development Driver
Posts: 342
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Post by 100%FORD on Oct 29, 2012 11:10:17 GMT 10
Can you post up the reviews that i have dismissed? I am interested in all the reviews that put the FPV R spec or even the F6 head to head with HSV. By memory it 375 sedans and 200 utes. Isnt that the way advancement has worked in the motoring industry, up spec models begin with the advancements at a premium that eventually pass down to the lower spec models. Must not be to bad the HSV's have been the whipping boys of the FPV all Aussie powered F6 for years, now the Aussie engineered FPV V8 has stepped up to the mark aswell. What was the budget HSV spent on the W427? meant to sell 427 and only managed just over 100, but what would you expect your ignorance is bliss. HSV the whipping boys? Mate based on what? Certainly not sales or resale value. Just exactly how do you gadge a performance car's success? Surely its sales play am massive part. Simply put, FPV's sales be it turbo six or supercharged V8 or that quad cam lump they used to sell - has been mediocre to poor throughout the companies history. So based on your claim that FPV intend to produce a total of 575 R Spec sedans and utes, it puts the R Spec development at a little under $7 000 per car. With number like that no wonder Prodrive packed up and ran away... "PERFORMANCE"
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Post by Redforever on Oct 29, 2012 12:06:04 GMT 10
HSV the whipping boys? Mate based on what? Certainly not sales or resale value. Just exactly how do you gadge a performance car's success? Surely its sales play am massive part. Simply put, FPV's sales be it turbo six or supercharged V8 or that quad cam lump they used to sell - has been mediocre to poor throughout the companies history. So based on your claim that FPV intend to produce a total of 575 R Spec sedans and utes, it puts the R Spec development at a little under $7 000 per car. With number like that no wonder Prodrive packed up and ran away... "PERFORMANCE" Pity very few people actually experience that from behind the wheel. And I guess it needs to be in a straight line obviously because they don't appear to stop or go around corners very well. So I guess if you're a well off Ford fanatic who lives at the end of a really long straight road then an R Spec is right up your alley...
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100%FORD
V8 Development Driver
Posts: 342
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Post by 100%FORD on Oct 29, 2012 12:27:56 GMT 10
Its not only Straight line speed. Resale Value??? Check out the HSV W427 and FPV GT Cobra, 2 limited editions released within 12 months of each other, get back to me on it
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Post by Redforever on Oct 29, 2012 14:43:59 GMT 10
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100%FORD
V8 Development Driver
Posts: 342
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Post by 100%FORD on Oct 29, 2012 15:34:53 GMT 10
A point you tried to make!!!! % loss on resale? Back to topic, how would you describe "HANDLING" refering to a motor vehicle?
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Post by Redforever on Oct 29, 2012 20:37:18 GMT 10
A point you tried to make!!!! % loss on resale? Back to topic, how would you describe "HANDLING" refering to a motor vehicle? Why that's amazing. You found a single FPV model that has a better resale than the most expensive HSV in history. Well goodness me, that's an amazing revelation..!
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100%FORD
V8 Development Driver
Posts: 342
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Post by 100%FORD on Oct 29, 2012 21:38:27 GMT 10
A point you tried to make!!!! % loss on resale? Back to topic, how would you describe "HANDLING" refering to a motor vehicle?[/b][[/color]Why that's amazing. You found a single FPV model that has a better resale than the most expensive HSV in history. Well goodness me, that's an amazing revelation..! [/quote] You made the statement!!!!!! None of the other 2007/08 HSV models come close all around 40%+ loss , the W427 was the best Is there a HSV car in the FPV era that betters the BF Cobras car resale value?
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jamolad
Formula Ford Driver
Posts: 211
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Post by jamolad on Oct 30, 2012 10:41:57 GMT 10
Resale is based on what they actually get for their car when (if) it sells - which is often a far cry from the asking price. And there are some people out there that are dreaming with what they are asking - particularly those that have not much more than special stickers (both FPV and HSV). A mate that works in engineering was shopping around a few months back, and by 'helping' him I got to drive an E3 GTS and a GT-P in a semi-spirited manner. It pains me to say it, but the blue guys do finally have a great V8 in the FPV - and the difference between the FPV and HSV V8s is far more than the power badges on each suggest. That is not to say the LS3 is average - it is a great engine in stock trim and reacts very well to a few relatively cheap bolt-ons (stock it would be more than enough for me for street duties) - but head-to-head in terms of engine alone the win goes to the 5.0 SC. LS3 is not bad - it is very very good - but the FPV V8 is better (at the moment ). Take the engines out of consideration - I really hope the HSV is still the better car. Prior to the R-Spec the FPV crowd had a great donk in a car that did not do it justice. The FPV engine blew me away - it really is super-impressive - but the day we had the cars was mostly damp, and the HSV was a lot better in terms of handling and braking, it felt far more sure-footed and you just felt more confident. Although subjective, I also preferred the HSV seating position (very much preferred), and the HSV seemed to come with more kit. Both had their pros and cons, but overall if you take engine out of the equation I gave the win to the HSV. In isolation the GT-P is a great car - but head-to-head against the HSV the HSV was the better of the two (engine aside). Just like the LS3 is a great engine - but head-to-head the 5.0 SC is better (for now). But that was a GT-P, not an R-Spec, and the changes to R-Spec seem to be directed at all the areas the GT-P lacked against the HSV. I just hope the HSV is still the better car underneath, as the one thing it has over the FPV offering that FPV cannot easily address is where the front wheel is located, which probably is the single biggest contributor to the HSV having the better dynamics of the two, with far less front overhang and much less weight in front of and over the front wheels. In a perfect world I would have the FPV donk in a HSV chassis (preferably a E1, though looks are subjective). But I haven't driven an R-Spec. Both cars are awesome - if I was in to drag racing I would take the FPV, but if I wanted a daily driver that can be enjoyed through the Hills I would probably take the HSV (having not driven R-Spec). But that is because of what I would use it for and how I would use it. When it comes to street duties, they both have more than enough power - in a 60 zone one will get you from naught to court in under 5 seconds, the other in just over 5 seconds - I'm not interested in seeing who can lose their licence fastest or get their car impounded first, so will never get 'owned' from light to light by an FPV or any other car as I don't race on the road. On a spirited run through the hills, I have no interest in 'racing' against someone or trying to keep up with someone else as I have no idea of their capabilities and don't want to get involved in their wreck or feel my racing them forced them to go beyond their capabilities (or ego seeing me go beyond mine). Sure, the FPV would give me a huge rush everytime I floored it, but I just love going fast through corners. No doubt the FPV would get me through corners fast, just as the HSV would still get me from corner to corner plenty fast enough, I just feel the HSV would be easier to live with between spirited drives (which is 95% of how it would be used), and would still put a smile on my face the rare times I got to enjoy it. But all this counts for zero as I am not in the market for either car. I will continue to drive my current car that meets my needs and that I still enjoy - and my opinion is probably invalid as I can get enjoyment out of punting my wife's CE Lancer 1.8 through corners at speed. If an FPV that a Ford fan doesn't own is faster than a HSV that I don't own - I can get on with life. And ultimately it was my mate that had the cash, and he ended up getting...a very nice second-hand Audi, with far more weight over the front axle than the FPV, but chicks dig it so it meets his needs perfectly.
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Post by Redforever on Oct 30, 2012 21:56:09 GMT 10
I own an E series 3 Clubsport. It sits on the special edition forged 20's and its my 7th new HSV and I have owned E series, E2 and this E3 and it is without doubt the best car I have ever owned.
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Post by HDT05 on Oct 31, 2012 12:17:29 GMT 10
I own an E series 3 Clubsport. It sits on the special edition forged 20's and its my 7th new HSV and I have owned E series, E2 and this E3 and it is without doubt the best car I have ever owned. I owned a HSV E3 Clubsport also, great car.
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100%FORD
V8 Development Driver
Posts: 342
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Post by 100%FORD on Oct 31, 2012 15:10:38 GMT 10
I own an E series 3 Clubsport. It sits on the special edition forged 20's and its my 7th new HSV and I have owned E series, E2 and this E3 and it is without doubt the best car I have ever owned. This explains your bitterness towards the R Spec
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Post by Redforever on Nov 19, 2012 11:12:44 GMT 10
I own an E series 3 Clubsport. It sits on the special edition forged 20's and its my 7th new HSV and I have owned E series, E2 and this E3 and it is without doubt the best car I have ever owned. This explains your bitterness towards the R Spec No not at all. I put my money where my mouth is when it comes to cars. And obviously given the huge advantage HSV continues to enjoy in sales over FPV, there are far more enthusiatsic HSV fans out there prepared to do the same...
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100%FORD
V8 Development Driver
Posts: 342
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Post by 100%FORD on Jan 17, 2013 8:48:39 GMT 10
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