100%FORD
V8 Development Driver
Posts: 342
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Post by 100%FORD on Jul 2, 2012 16:58:14 GMT 10
Actually there is Ford global engines in the Falcon and Territory. Its a pitty Ford Aus dont advertise the fact how much more Australiian tha Falcon and Territory are compared to the Commodore. Its closer to 3or4 to 1 on the opossing platforms. On the above Taurus, the front end doesnt have alot to be desired but that seems to be the way with alot of US designs, but on performance and handling the US police forces are wrapped with the interceptors, it seems its made the Caprice a waste of time and money. Well you're drawing a long bow here mate. The just introduced ecoboost engine in th Falcon is a global motor I'll grant you that as is the old diesel in the Territory, however the majority of Falcon sales and all FPV sales feature the unique to Australia in line six and turbo and the heavily modified 5 litre V8. The Falcon uses a locally built 6 but imported V8 and ecoboost 4, whilst Holden use a locally built V6 and imported 8. Falcon gearoboxes are imported as are Commodores and the majority of other major components are locally sourced items in both cars. So where you get this 3 or 4 to 1 business is news to me? US law enforcement services were extremely happy with the Caprice patrol car and there are plenty of rave reviews. Due to it's longer wheelbase and extra rear seat room it is favoured by law enforcement groups. "Sorry mate, wrong on a few counts. Firstly Falcon and Territory share nothing except ZF gearbox with other products" No, just getting you to shorten yours Just not as favoured as first thought!!!!!
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Post by Redforever on Jul 2, 2012 19:12:24 GMT 10
Well you're drawing a long bow here mate. The just introduced ecoboost engine in th Falcon is a global motor I'll grant you that as is the old diesel in the Territory, however the majority of Falcon sales and all FPV sales feature the unique to Australia in line six and turbo and the heavily modified 5 litre V8. The Falcon uses a locally built 6 but imported V8 and ecoboost 4, whilst Holden use a locally built V6 and imported 8. Falcon gearoboxes are imported as are Commodores and the majority of other major components are locally sourced items in both cars. So where you get this 3 or 4 to 1 business is news to me? US law enforcement services were extremely happy with the Caprice patrol car and there are plenty of rave reviews. Due to it's longer wheelbase and extra rear seat room it is favoured by law enforcement groups. "Sorry mate, wrong on a few counts. Firstly Falcon and Territory share nothing except ZF gearbox with other products" No, just getting you to shorten yours Just not as favoured as first thought!!!!! So the 2.7 litre diesel in the Territory isn't a derivative of the same engine found in the range rover Discovery? And the ecoboost in the Falcon isn't found in other Euro Ford products? Please....
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100%FORD
V8 Development Driver
Posts: 342
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Post by 100%FORD on Jul 3, 2012 11:16:26 GMT 10
"Sorry mate, wrong on a few counts. Firstly Falcon and Territory share nothing except ZF gearbox with other products" No, just getting you to shorten yours Just not as favoured as first thought!!!!! So the 2.7 litre diesel in the Territory isn't a derivative of the same engine found in the range rover Discovery? And the ecoboost in the Falcon isn't found in other Euro Ford products? Please.... Its "your" quote!!!!!!!
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Post by Redforever on Jul 3, 2012 18:07:39 GMT 10
So the 2.7 litre diesel in the Territory isn't a derivative of the same engine found in the range rover Discovery? And the ecoboost in the Falcon isn't found in other Euro Ford products? Please.... Its "your" quote!!!!!!! I really don't understand the point you are trying to make? The context of my remarks was in relation to the points that the Falcon (and Territory) are by and large orphan products in the Ford world. Yes they use a couple of engines that are used overseas. But the majority of their sales still rely on the local 6 and turbo version in the Falcon as well as the unique FPV modified V8. So the ability to integrate the Falcon into a global design is severely restricted and any major upgrades would be prohibitive. The Commodore is part of a design used on other products and therefore integrates into GM's global design and engineering systems more easily (less costly). And yes the BA was a major redesign, however the majority of it's external structure including engineering hard points such as door openings (and doors) firewall, bonnet and boot hinge points and roof (Ford used the AU roof die and fitted an insert to flatten the original curved design) we're the same. Given that Ford admitted that that the FG was an 80% refresh of the previous model there is obviously design and engineering elements in the current Falcon that carry over from the AU days.
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Post by Bundy on Jul 17, 2012 21:27:41 GMT 10
First off, it will come as no great surprise that Ford has decided to lay off 440 workers at their Broadmeadows and Geelong plants. I mean us as keen motorsport and motoring fanatics are aware of the change of consumer preferance away from the Falcon which is causing their sales to dwindle dramatically. What I don't understand is how this can be made out to be a shock and that it would unexpectedly lead to job losses... I also feel rather pissed off that the government has put significant amounts of funding into Ford ($103 million this year alone in January for the jobs to stay put till 2016) for them to turn around post a $290 million loss on the back of a slight gain last financial year with both periods seeing large reductions in the volume of cars sold and then for them to lay off 400 odd workers and more to come surely One good thing in this announcement from Ford is that proactive decision that will add to the company's profitability by changing up the mix in their manufacture by building more territories instead of falcons... In relation to its V8 Supercar program, there is no way that Ford will put up a funding program that will be at similar levels to Holden...so whether that means SBR will be taking a pay cut, who knows www.theaustralian.com.au/news/nation/ford-to-cut-more-than-400-victoria-jobs-at-broadmeadows-and-geelong/story-e6frg6nf-1226427876959
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Post by crikey on Jul 17, 2012 23:57:41 GMT 10
Well said Bundy, Also expect the suppliers to Ford to have to cut back on jobs as well. Not good at all.
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Post by Redforever on Jul 18, 2012 7:42:49 GMT 10
It is a shame for Ford and it's workers but with a factory designed to produce at up to 375 - 400 cars a day now with demand at barely 20% of that, the workers are going to keep going unfortunately.
And although the Territory is going ok after its facelift and diesel engine, the basic vehicle was launched in 2004 and against extremely tough competition Ford will need to continue to invest to keep this model competitive.
Never good to hear about workers losing their jobs and the flow on effect with decreased supplier demand will see more jobs go in that sector no doubt.
Tough times for local manufacturing and desperate times for Ford.
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100%FORD
V8 Development Driver
Posts: 342
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Post by 100%FORD on Jul 18, 2012 9:43:28 GMT 10
The government funding into Ford this year was around $53 million to gaurantee the Falcon being built here till 2016, not even 1/5th of what Holden recieved this year alone.
As dissapointing as it is and i feel for all the workers involved, it had to be done!!!!!!!!
Going by sales figures of locally produced cars and massive shortfalls in expected export sales numbers there will be other car manufacturers announcing more job cuts in the near future, i feel sorry for all the workers involved.
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Post by Bundy on Jul 18, 2012 11:47:50 GMT 10
The AMWU has tried to intervene and negotiate that job loss number down from 440 to something more reasonable to them. Don't know how successful they will be at that...seems pretty set in stone given the performance of the company.
Also, I read that the Ecoboost 4 cylinder Falcon has not attracted any fleet takers which could be a real killer to its sucess as those types of sales had made up about 70% of existing Falcon 6 cylinder sales before. This is due to them not reaching required enviornmental performance standards. The Toyota Aurion and the Holden Commodore, however, do despite being 6 cylinders. But in terms of the Ecoboost's sales performance so far, one could only conclude that it has been woeful. As the article on Drive suggests that it has been more popular with Ford's employees than the general public. This mirrors the slide in the general sentiment for the 6 cylinder falcon anyway. I thought targeting 2000 sales for this year for the Ecoboost was a target too small and they were intentionally setting up a scenario where they would exceed their own expectations so it would look better to the market, their investors and stakeholders. But it seems from the sale numbers so far, that they will struggle to attain that. I guess I just have to go back to Ford's ability to actually get the car out there and known to the people so that they can have a chance to look at it to see whether they want to buy it or not. And atm with very minimal marketing and advertising surrounding the Ecoboost (yes you had the Canetoad ad but where did it go?; by relying on social media to carry the message, it won't go to all the segments of the market that they should be actually targeting), you have to say that this yet again is a complete failure of there's when they definately didn't need it to fail. news.drive.com.au/drive/motor-news/fourcylinder-falcon-flops-20120717-2272o.html
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100%FORD
V8 Development Driver
Posts: 342
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Post by 100%FORD on Jul 18, 2012 14:01:35 GMT 10
The AMWU has tried to intervene and negotiate that job loss number down from 440 to something more reasonable to them. Don't know how successful they will be at that...seems pretty set in stone given the performance of the company.
Also, I read that the Ecoboost 4 cylinder Falcon has not attracted any fleet takers which could be a real killer to its sucess as those types of sales had made up about 70% of existing Falcon 6 cylinder sales before. This is due to them not reaching required enviornmental performance standards. The Toyota Aurion and the Holden Commodore, however, do despite being 6 cylinders. But in terms of the Ecoboost's sales performance so far, one could only conclude that it has been woeful. As the article on Drive suggests that it has been more popular with Ford's employees than the general public. This mirrors the slide in the general sentiment for the 6 cylinder falcon anyway. I thought targeting 2000 sales for this year for the Ecoboost was a target too small and they were intentionally setting up a scenario where they would exceed their own expectations so it would look better to the market, their investors and stakeholders. But it seems from the sale numbers so far, that they will struggle to attain that. I guess I just have to go back to Ford's ability to actually get the car out there and known to the people so that they can have a chance to look at it to see whether they want to buy it or not. And atm with very minimal marketing and advertising surrounding the Ecoboost (yes you had the Canetoad ad but where did it go?; by relying on social media to carry the message, it won't go to all the segments of the market that they should be actually targeting), you have to say that this yet again is a complete failure of there's when they definately didn't need it to fail. news.drive.com.au/drive/motor-news/fourcylinder-falcon-flops-20120717-2272o.html Well done Bundy, he didnt suck you into his misleading dishonest ill informed government funding figures, on this one Has his poor reporting of figures and facts resulted in any further errors in the artical but?
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Post by Redforever on Jul 18, 2012 18:51:00 GMT 10
The AMWU has tried to intervene and negotiate that job loss number down from 440 to something more reasonable to them. Don't know how successful they will be at that...seems pretty set in stone given the performance of the company.
Also, I read that the Ecoboost 4 cylinder Falcon has not attracted any fleet takers which could be a real killer to its sucess as those types of sales had made up about 70% of existing Falcon 6 cylinder sales before. This is due to them not reaching required enviornmental performance standards. The Toyota Aurion and the Holden Commodore, however, do despite being 6 cylinders. But in terms of the Ecoboost's sales performance so far, one could only conclude that it has been woeful. As the article on Drive suggests that it has been more popular with Ford's employees than the general public. This mirrors the slide in the general sentiment for the 6 cylinder falcon anyway. I thought targeting 2000 sales for this year for the Ecoboost was a target too small and they were intentionally setting up a scenario where they would exceed their own expectations so it would look better to the market, their investors and stakeholders. But it seems from the sale numbers so far, that they will struggle to attain that. I guess I just have to go back to Ford's ability to actually get the car out there and known to the people so that they can have a chance to look at it to see whether they want to buy it or not. And atm with very minimal marketing and advertising surrounding the Ecoboost (yes you had the Canetoad ad but where did it go?; by relying on social media to carry the message, it won't go to all the segments of the market that they should be actually targeting), you have to say that this yet again is a complete failure of there's when they definately didn't need it to fail. news.drive.com.au/drive/motor-news/fourcylinder-falcon-flops-20120717-2272o.html Well done Bundy, he didnt suck you into his misleading dishonest ill informed government funding figures, on this one Has his poor reporting of figures and facts resulted in any further errors in the artical but? Although it is off topic it is worth correcting. Holden received more government funding than Ford, no doubt. But the difference is for the federal and SA state governments $230 Million pledge, Holden has committed to investing $1 Billion in infrastructure and new model development. Yes that government money is a hand out, but I'll take better than 4 to 1 investment return from Holden as against Ford simply taking the money and retrenching over 400 workers.
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100%FORD
V8 Development Driver
Posts: 342
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Post by 100%FORD on Jul 18, 2012 19:25:39 GMT 10
Well done Bundy, he didnt suck you into his misleading dishonest ill informed government funding figures, on this one Has his poor reporting of figures and facts resulted in any further errors in the artical but? Although it is off topic it is worth correcting. Holden received more government funding than Ford, no doubt. But the difference is for the federal and SA state governments $230 Million pledge, Holden has committed to investing $1 Billion in infrastructure and new model development. Yes that government money is a hand out, but I'll take better than 4 to 1 investment return from Holden as against Ford simply taking the money and retrenching over 400 workers. Oh $42 million from the government to Fords $230 million for the developement of the 4cyl and diesel engines, thats better than 5 to 1, isnt it? Ford still employs around 2600 employees after these retrenchments, how many do Holden employ? For value per employee id say the Ford deal is way better!!!!! Holden let go 100+ workers this year before demanding threatening State and Federal governments to fork out atleast a couple of Hundred million minium in tax payers funding, or they would shut up shop. Redforever dont go throwing to many stones yet, as the Commodores sales percentage is slipping just as fast as the Falcon, maybe even a bit faster and yes the Cruise numbers are increasing in sales but the profit margin would be no where near that of the the Falcon Territory or Commodore.
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Post by HDT05 on Jul 19, 2012 6:37:12 GMT 10
Why doesn't the government give Ford more money like they did Holden? Would suck for the Workers...
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Post by Bundy on Jul 19, 2012 9:22:05 GMT 10
Why doesn't the government give Ford more money like they did Holden? Would suck for the Workers... Not sure the government will be all that persuaded to do it after they gave them money earlier on with the promise not to have any job cuts for the next couple of years and what does Ford go and do? Break that promise and force redundancies...I think Ford lost whatever good faith it had with the federal government there... but I mean the unions are still heavily involved with the federal government so maybe there is a chance for an intervention or just to offer more financial help to get the laid off workers back on their feet faster...I just feel for the workers at Geelong most knowing that they mostly would be fervent cats supporters in a location were manufacturing is really struggling outside that of Ford; there chances of finding a job in their field would be slim...
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Post by HDT05 on Jul 19, 2012 9:29:36 GMT 10
I'm not worried about Ford, I'm more worried about the workers, it's affecting peoples lives here...forget all the Holden V Ford bullcrap, gotta feel for the workers.
Agree with what you said too Bundy.
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Post by Redforever on Jul 19, 2012 11:15:05 GMT 10
I'm not worried about Ford, I'm more worried about the workers, it's affecting peoples lives here...forget all the Holden V Ford bullcrap, gotta feel for the workers. Agree with what you said too Bundy. Good point mate and that's the real issue isn't it....People's jobs and livelihood
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100%FORD
V8 Development Driver
Posts: 342
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Post by 100%FORD on Jul 21, 2012 12:39:28 GMT 10
What employer can gaurantee anyone a job these days?
I dont recall reading that Ford GAURANTEED that all there workers jobs would be saved by the Federal/State government grant, that it was actually for gauranteeing the manufacture of Falcon/Territory in Australia till 2016.
In offering the voluntery redundencies with over "3 MONTHS NOTICE" Ford are giving the workers time,assistance and opportunity of gaining other employment.
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Post by Redforever on Jul 30, 2012 11:34:10 GMT 10
What employer can gaurantee anyone a job these days? I dont recall reading that Ford GAURANTEED that all there workers jobs would be saved by the Federal/State government grant, that it was actually for gauranteeing the manufacture of Falcon/Territory in Australia till 2016. In offering the voluntery redundencies with over "3 MONTHS NOTICE" Ford are giving the workers time,assistance and opportunity of gaining other employment. Yes because there's plenty of other car assembly plants these workers could apply for jobs in..
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Post by HDT05 on Jul 30, 2012 13:25:34 GMT 10
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Post by Bundy on Jul 30, 2012 13:52:16 GMT 10
I think that date was already the one that was planned for Ford to cease production of the Falcon but this just widens it to include all the other cars it produces. Oh well, it is a shame for the workers but it was always going to be. Hopefully the commodore can hang on for a few more years. I guess ford fans only have themselves to blame for not going out there and buying new fords (and fords built here!)...I know a few of them talk incessantly about liking those korean or japanese imports but at the same time stick the boot into Ford about its shoddy marketing campaigns (which may be true) and their lacklustre sales but, in the end, have they not contributed to Ford's local manufacturing downfall here in Australia
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